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In the just released 40/4 list all these engines have done exceedingly well and are now firmly in the bracket of Fritz 9 /Fruit 2.2.1 /H10 as far as blitz rating is concerned . I think that Fruit is in urgent need of an update . With all due respect to Paidar/Schäfer/Böhm for their tremendous work a Fruit only as strong as Ktulu/Spike seems quite insulting . Azaad
Fabien Letouzey didn t work for the Fruit Project since december 2005 ...just read all the post on CCC and winboard Forum and since december 2005 , Ryan Benitez is working on the project ... and with all my respect to Ryan Benitez , he has less talent and skills than Letouzey ... Why Fabien letouzey doesn t work in the Fruit project since Fruit 221 ?? Some said he is working full time for his company and doesn t have time .. others said He is not agree with Ryan and Joachim Ranch ... and work no more on the project ... When Uri asked some question about Letouzey to Ryan benitez, he didn t answer ... maybe some clash in the fruit team ... and if Letouzey doesn t work on the project, i don t think that we will see soon a fruit stronger than Rybka. maybe some guys have to ask Tord Romstad to say to his best computer friend Fabien Letouzey to come back to chess engine ...
Hi chessmonster, can you please post here the link about Fabien's disagreement with his team? It's sad if Fabien stop Fruit's development.
by exemple below http://216.25.93.108/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3717&po... here some rumors that he is taking a long break off ... and he was June 2006 ... by Sandro Nechi , Benitez didn t answer ... and before even Rang told that Fabien didn t work on fruit since december 2005 , It was February or March 2005 ...
here just read Uri Blass comment ... it make clear that Fabien letouzey didn t work on the last fruit beta for WBEC and the Fruit smp who compete in the last pal/css , but Ryan Benitez http://216.25.93.108/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4283 and Ryan didn t say that uri was wrong ...
and Uri ask 2)You say: "We are chasing a much bigger fish" I wonder if "we" include Fabien and in case of positive reply I wonder how much time Fabien can give to Fruit. Uri and Ryan still didn t answer the question !!!
Hi chessmonster, Thank you. Very astute of you to notice such things! Very sad indeed. Maybe Fabien can just make Fruit free again if he's no longer interested in commercial ventures? I hope it will not follow Ruffian!
Then for me not doubt , Letouzey didn t work on the Fruit project since December 2005 ... he worked full time for his company before ... and had time to develop fruit in his free time ... Why since dec 2005 he didn t have time ???even in his free time Only fabien and the Fruit team know the answer ...
Yes , as I posted in an earlier thread in newsycf it is strange that Fabien could find time to work on and improve the free Fruit but has no time for the commercial Fruit . And friction with Benitez ( I also believe that there IS some problem ) can not be primary reason that Fabien has stopped working on Fruit . In fact Ryan was drafted in precisely because Fabien was not able to give time to Fruit . I think it has something to do with fadedpence between doing something because you love it and doing something for money . When you do something for money you start comparing the returns you are getting with the effort you are putting in and that can be very demoralizing . Azaad
And of course you are completely right when you say that Ryan is not as good as Fabien ( or Thomas if I may add so ) . Not by a mile . You might remember that that first betas of Gambit Fruit (released at same time as Toga II 1.1)were probably weaker than even Fruit 2.1 and Gambit Fruit became respectably strong only with version 4bx whan he changed all settings to match those of Toga II 1.1 but it was still weaker than Toga II . And his March 2006 beta playing in Sedat Canbaz's tournaments is no better than Fruit 2.2.1 . Ryan is no doubt a very good programmer with a lot of ideas but I doubt if he is good at separating good ideas from the bad ones or rather at assigning proper bonuses to good ideas (for example doubled rooks on an open file is no doubt a good thing but assign an unrealistically high bonus to it and it will do more harm than good ) Remember how he added zillions of extensions in Gambit Fruit? And the net result was probably less than zero . Azaad
Then why sell Fruit!? It started as a hobby and Fabien was so good with the free Fruit. If Fabien is unhappy with the results selling it then maybe he should go back to treating it as a hobby. Or maybe he can collaborate with Thomas to further improve Fruit/Toga...free of course
I should have said March 2006 beta of FRUIT . And in the earlier post please read Difference in place of the mysterious word fadedpence . Azaad
Perhaps its an idle dream but if these two were to collaborate Vas would really have something to worry about . Azaad
Maybe simply Fabien is not the master of the fruit destiny ... He probably sign a contract ... probably Joachim Rang lead fruit team now , that s probaly why he brought Ryan benitez in december... when Fabien step down ... to know about the story , you have to ask ryan benitez and joachim Rang or Tord Romstad his best chess computer friend... because Letouzey simply disappear even in the winboard forum...
Darn it! Joachim Rang took advantage of Fabien! What would Fabien need Joachim for? Joachim Rang is his tester!? But if he release Fruit free then he has hundreds of testers. How much does he make anyway from selling Fruit? Now there will be no new versions of Fruit because of these guys. They should've let Fabien and Fruit alone. Kinda reminds me what happened to List.
Fabien is a programmer ,he knows nothing about sales ,Marketing,business,business plan... first he was improved fruit 2 years ago for fun... 3 version later Fruit was the top engine in mid 2005 ... that s why some friends gave him advice to close the fruit sources (to avoid clone like patriot 2.0 later) and to go commercial(winboard forum) ... Maybe to go commercial he needed a guy who know business,marketing,sales ... after why he step down is another story ... Now Joachim rang and Ryan Benitez seem to be the master of fruit destiny ... Maybe JR invest money in the fruit project ?? or promised money to Letouzey than Letouzey never saw because the fruit sale was low ... but it s very strange that Letouzey have time to fruit when Fruit was free, and now doesn t have time to the commercial fruit ???
"Now Joachim rang and Ryan Benitez seem to the master of fruit destiny ..." I have no complaints for a commercial Fruit if they do a good job. But it seems they messed up Fruit completely by arguing with Fabien. Besides, why Joachim Rang and Benitez for partners? There is Lokasoft and they need a top engine like Fruit. Look at Lokasoft's stable of engines, even with Chesstiger, it's clear they cannot measure to chessbase engines. In the meantime, latest news from fruitchess.com is 03.01.2006! It's clear that there are no developments for Fruit! I hope for computerchess' sake, Joachim and Ryan will release Fabien from whatever contractual snare they stuck Fabien with if they cannot agree with him. After all, there will be no new Fruit, commercial or free without Fabien.
it seems before Fabien's problem with JR and RB, another member of his team left. http://www.volker-pittlik.name/wbforum/viewtopic.p... an excerpt: "That's your way of going on. I am quite sure that it won't be too successful in the long run. I already have records of several talented people who once helped you and clearly decided to go away or already started to help other concurrent initiatives." months later, Marc released a book for Toga...sweet revenge http://www.volker-pittlik.name/wbforum/viewtopic.p...
Marc Lacrosse was a french friend of Fabien letouzey , but not friend of JR and RB apparently... sad because he was doing book for fruit for free , and they kick him out and looking for another book maker !!! poor Marc Lacrosse ... maybe same story for Fabien?? did they kick him outside his own baby ??? no new from Letouzey since december ... very strange ...
I wonder if they can still implement these.... http://www.fruitchess.com/future-plans.htm
The CCRL rating after 25 games: http://216.25.93.108/forum/viewtopic.php?topic_vie... OK - very early days but it does look very promising indeed for Spike and satisfactory for Ktulu and Glaurung. It seems difficult to believe that just 2 years ago we were all happy to see an engine upgrade that managed a rating increase of 20 points. Dave
Correction. Not, of course, satisfactory for the single CPU Glaurung 1.2! Dave
From RB: "Well many delays and it is hard to stick to a set release date and still make sure the end customers are getting a good value but my current goal is late July. I hope sooner but I won’t count on it. I would have liked to have already made a release but of course other chess engines have come on strong and a few elo gain simply would not be enough when compared to the likes of Rybka, Shredder, and Hiarcs. We are also getting to the point that a good book builder would be very useful. Marc was great but he has unfortunately moved on." http://216.25.93.108/forum/viewtopic.php?topic_vie... take note he said "my current goal" not Fabien's. On the other hand, we may see a new release by the end of July. Not Fabien's improvements though, but Ryan's. Who is "we"? Does that include Fabien or only JR and RB? Here he blasts Toga: "Toga II 1.2.1 is the same as Toga II 1.2 Beta2a as for as play in a stable GUI. With more games you will see the ELO even out and Shredder 10 will very likely take the lead. Also I expect Hiarcs 10 UCI to pass the level of Toga and the development version of Fruit is also passed that level. Also computer vs. computer play is only one aspect of a chess engine. Style of play and features are just as important. Toga is uninteresting in both aspects." Oh yeah? and what about Gambit Fruit? http://216.25.93.108/forum/viewtopic.php?topic_vie...
http://216.25.93.108/forum/viewtopic.php?topic_vie... take note he said "my current goal" not Fabien's. On the other hand, we may see a new release by the end of July. Not Fabien's improvements though, but Ryan's. Who is "we"? Does that include Fabien or only JR and RB? Here he blasts Toga: "Toga II 1.2.1 is the same as Toga II 1.2 Beta2a as for as play in a stable GUI. With more games you will see the ELO even out and Shredder 10 will very likely take the lead. Also I expect Hiarcs 10 UCI to pass the level of Toga and the development version of Fruit is also passed that level. Also computer vs. computer play is only one aspect of a chess engine. Style of play and features are just as important. Toga is uninteresting in both aspects." Oh yeah? and what about Gambit Fruit? http://216.25.93.108/forum/viewtopic.php?topic_vie...
And to all this one can add Benitez's ise of the word "I" on a CCC forum thread on Shredderbases when he said it was likely that he would incorporate Scorpiobases in the next version of Fruit.
I have always wished that Ryan would concern himself more with Fruit and less with Toga II .Like everybody else who lacks a valid point he takes refuge behind a. General assertions which cant be proved or disproved and b. Outright falsehoods .Under the first category falls his assertion that Toga II is uninteresting stylewise and featurewise . Personally I like Toga's style a lot but if another person finds it uninteresting how do I convince him or he me.One with equal justification call Rybka's style uninteresting . And what features is Ryan talking about ? That Toga II does not support tbs ? But if that is a weakness Toga II pays the penalty and if it still comes out stronger than any engine bar Rybka then thats that . As for outright falsehoods the suggestion that H10 may overtake Toga II 1.2.1 really takes the cake .And even though I have always maintained that S10 and Toga II are on the same level, if the push comes to shove it is worth mentioning that out of 6 rating lists (2 CEGT+2CCRL+CSS+Utzinger) Toga II IS ahead of S10 in 5 . Azaad
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